I just have no idea. Maybe you do.
Your opinion is requested. All of your opinions; but most especially if you are a male, because clearly I can not figure you guys out.
Okay. So given that I’d put myself on an extended dating hiatus during the last few years, it may be my skills are rusty, but not so rusty that I don’t generally recognize at least some signs of interest. But I’ve been mulling this one over in my head for a while and I’m not sure what to think. And it bugs me. Maybe you can offer an opinion. Here are the facts as they stand:
1) I met a particular male of species (MOS) who I find visually attractive a couple of months back through a few friend-group events at nightclubs.
2) MOS has progressively begun to speak to me more and more at these events.
3) MOS has recently (over the last 2-3 weeks) developed a lengthy email habit with me (by this I mean the emails are long in length, covering a variety of topics we’re both interested in; and occur at least a couple of times a week) in which many get-to-know-me-better conversations are shared. These include mentions of life philosophies, politics, light jokes about sex, and the mailing of article links that he thinks might spur my interest if I haven’t written in a few days.
4) The emails also generally suggest doing various activities (”this is coming up next saturday,” “I read about this cool play I’m interested in,” “I’d be interested in going to that thing you mentioned,” but fall short of the traditionally obvious, “Will you go out with me on said date?”
5) While some of the email conversation has skirted around some sex and relationship related topics, and some of that has been jokey, nothing has been *directly* flirty (as in, I’ve given him some conversational openings that would have allowed him to flirt jokingly about me in particular to indicate personal interest in me, and he hasn’t taken the bait–he keeps the topic generic and not personal).
6) In the last email exchange, MOS gives me a rundown of what’s happened with him since the weekend and mentions that at a club last week, after having a few drinks, he arranged to go on a date with a girl, which he did on Wednesday, but it turned out the girl “is not his type” and that he should have known better than to ask someone out at a club after a few drinks because compatibility judgment can be impaired.
7) There were plans being made to go out with usual friends’ group tonight. MOS expressed interest to me about knowing what I was doing before major group activity, and thought he might want to go along (I was planning on going to dinner with a friend); asked me to keep him informed.
8) On day of potential dinner, I emailed MOS to let him know other friend had bailed on dinner due to acceptable excuse, but that I would still be willing to go to dinner with him if he felt like it; he should please inform. (This would allow him his first opportunity for real alone time with me if he wanted to take it.)
9) MOS did not answer email all day.
10) I wrote at end of work day to say I was assuming he wouldn’t be able to make dinner based on not hearing so here was the time we’d be at the event and I’d see him there. (It was already confirmed he was going to said event.) Provided my numbers in case he had any questions re the plans.
11) That evening, I am getting myself done up to go to event; about an hour before I need to leave the house–too late to have dinner at that point. MOS calls. (I am surprised by this.) MOS says he wanted to let me know he only just got my email just then. I am pleasant and say no worries, no problem at all (and I mean it), we’ll just see him there. MOS pauses and then tells me what time he plans to be there. I say okay. MOS seems flustered, like he’s not sure what to say next, but appears to not want to get off the phone. I ask him a few polite questions; which he starts answering. Then I suggest we finish the conversation at the event. We hang up.
12) At event, MOS spends time with other friends, but appears to be taking opportunities to talk to me alone. When I go to the bar to buy a drink for myself and a friend, two minutes later he is at the bar to, so he says, order a drink for himself and while he’s at it order one for our other friend in common (a female, married). But instead he talks to me for probably 20 minutes and does not order a drink; lets the bartender ignore him. Finally bartender asks him directly what he wants and he orders a drink for the friend and just pours himself a glass of water.
13) Other similar things happen throughout the night. For inst, I leave the group, who is dancing, to sit down at a booth and wait out a song I don’t particularly like. He follows and sits down in booth with me. Talks with me for long time. At another point, I indicate to the group that I am going to the bar to get some water. He says he thinks he will join me. More talking. Etc.
14) However, NO FLIRTING during any of these conversations. Just pleasant conversation, sometimes deep stuff, sometimes clever sarcasm, sometimes jokes…like that. But never even a slightly direct flirt.
15) He re-points out to me (just pointed out in an email the day before) that a bi-monthly arts event that I had mentioned a while back that I wanted to check out next time around is next Saturday and that he is planning on going to it. But he does not DIRECTLY ask if I want to go with him; the tone is more like he is just letting me know it is happening and he is going. It seems I’m open to invite myself along, but it seems he is avoiding asking, “Do you want to go with me?” It is an extremely casual mention, and quickly dropped when I offer a kind of vague “Oh yeah, that is coming up isn’t it; I was reading about the theme” response (because I feel weird inserting myself in someone else’s plans if I can’t tell if they’re really into me being there).
16) Throughout the night, MOS shows no interest in trying to meet or speak to any other women at the event besides me (other than our married friend); and there are many women available there to meet–an opportunity that another male in our group takes full advantage of.
17) Toward the end of the night, he spends a some time dancing with our married friend, but at the end of the night, comes back around to dance with and talk to me before he leaves.
18) As we leave, I offer MOS a ride to a metro stop (out of the way for me, but more safe for him, because otherwise he has to run to catch the very last metro of the night near the venue we’re at before it leaves and he’s stuck–and time is short). Note: this would allow him his SECOND opportunity for real alone time with me if he wanted to take it.
19) MOS turns down the offer and opts to grab the one that is a closer walk to the club (but that he has to dash to and may miss).
So–opinions? Is he interested? Confused? Trying to suss out my level of interest first before jumping in there? Just being polite to an old chick? And should I even be concerned about this given the age difference? OR given that I really want a guy who has the confidence and fortitude to come out and say if he likes me and wants to go on a date? I really don’t want to have to do all the work yet again. I want to be pursued. Obviously pursued, so there’s no doubt.
Posted by dea on Sep 13, 2008 in dating/relationships, men ·
Personally, I’m no use in this arena. I don’t grok men who don’t ask for exactly what they want.
Neither do I. But maybe that’s the point. Maybe he doesn’t want anything, hence no asking.
But then I don’t understand the amped up attention and the attempts to follow me around when he could spend time with any number of others.
Trying to suss out if YOU are interested, is what it sounds like. As in “He’s had some training to where the women call the shots”…
I’d call him (call, voice is best) and ask him point blank “Will you go to [saturday event] with me? As my date?”
You’ll get an answer one way or the other. If the answer is ‘No’, you’re no worse off than you were before. If the answer is yes? YAY!
Drop the age thing. Means nothing. You’re friends at this point, and it sounds like you get along fine in spite of the age thing. So it means nothing.
But it does sound like he’s had some training in the ‘younger man/older woman’ relationship arena. Perhaps something to ask about.
I’d call him (call, voice is best) and ask him point blank “Will you go to [saturday event] with me? As my date?”
Heh. Actually, I hadn’t even gotten as far as to think seriously about whether *I* would want to pursue it in any real way if he does nothing. I just find his behavior unfathomable and was trying to sort out what was going on with him, for curiosity’s sake.
At present, I would definitely go on a date with him if he asked; I enjoy talking to him enough test the waters to see if I’d have fun in that capacity one-on-one; and there is certainly at least some chemistry going on. But I don’t know if I feel strongly enough about the full range of compatibility at this point to make it *my* MO to see if I can make it happen.
He’s someone I’d consider playing with, certainly. But not sure what else yet.
Anyway, I have asked him (via email) for clarification about what he was intending by mentioning Saturday’s event to me sans context (email because his was sent via email). My clarification ask was quite straightforward; no beating around the bush; and I made it clear he there would be no negative feelings on my part to any of the things he might have been thinking (including a date). We’ll see.
All in all, though…though I’d definitely be curious to explore what’s up, because it might be fun, I’m ultimately holding out for a man who is strong enough to say what he is wanting/feeling up front, with no fear.
It sounds like you are both interested and apprehensive about the possibility of romantic connection. Neither of you wishes to go out on a limb, and it sounds as if the arc of mutual interest is starting on it’s gentle downward slope. So, what’ll it be, then? No risk equals no reward.
BTW, I’m a 26 year old who dated (prior to my happy marriage) without regards to age, and I found such inconsequential differences to be just that. Many men my age feel the same way.
Ooh, ambiguous tricky situation. It certainly sounds like he’s just shy. Leaving aside what he’s actually said, and whether he’s been Properly Flirting, can you tell by innate Sexth Sense whether he’s into it?
I went out for a while with a man whose feelings/thoughts I never could fathom, and his slipperiness ended up with me giving up. On the other hand, the love of my life turned out to be surprisingly shy, which I wouldn’t have guessed to begin with.
Shyness = cool. Slipperiness = pain in the ass.
; )
Grrr.
Full disclosure/disclaimers: I just had a nasty shock in the pseudo-work arena and am up late because I’m agitated (read: pissy and frustrated) about it. Also, sexual politics and gender relations is a bit of a soapbox issue for me: The whole debate as I see it is full of hypocrisy and double standards (especially on the part of women) and I get pretty angry about that too. especially the “I want to be pursued” issue. So caveat emptor.
So, anyway, my opinion. He sounds interested to me. Assuming your report of his actions is accurate (and in my experience you’re a good observer, as well as being sexy, intelligent and perceptive, so it’s likely to be accurate) , he’s putting in too much attention and effort for someone who merely wants to be friends. He might be looking for something else from you, but intimacy is indicated. Ambivalence and denial are also indicated, for example with the aborted other date and the suspicious email nonavailability just before potential romantic dinners. Looks to me as though he wants you and he also *does not want* you: literally, he’s pulled both ways and doesn’t know where the fuck he’s at.
Of course, I just reread the comments and in particular your response to darkneuro, and I can hardly blame him. If you’re not sure you’re into him, and he’s picked that up (and I’m certain he has), why *should* he try any harder to pursue you? The joy of being rejected? The thrill of ’she’s only into me as long as I keep trying to maintain the relationship’ angst?
I’m even getting mixed messages reading your entry. On the one hand, all this analysis, what sounds like invites to dates, and on the other your response to DN makes him sound like a specimen you’re pondering on the table.
omg, it’s 3am. And this window’s too small to look at what I’ve written. And I have no idea how to finish this fucking comment. What am I saying? An hour’s gone by, I’m much calmer, which also makes me sleepier. His behaviour…. is normal and predictable under the circumstances. And there was something else, but I can’t put my finger on it. I think you might be placing unreasonable expectations on your men. Karl Elvis is a somewhat rare gem these days.
It sounds like he might be on the fence or just not really sure how to talk to you, whether he likes you that way or not. He might have some social issues, be a little shy, maybe a little autistic, and it’s easier for him to communicate through email and be a bit shyer when it comes to expressing what he wants in person.
I think you should knock him over the head w/ a club and drag him back to your cave. That will sort things out.
“Is there a reason we’re not out on a date right now?”
Or, in person… “should we be off making out in a corner?”
Keep in mind that I’m very single. But those are my thoughts.
G Savant: Yes, I think there is both attraction and some ambivalence on both sides. We’ll see what wins out. As of now, he’s not responded to my ask for full clarification. Which leads me to believe it may be downward slope.
But it’s nice to know that you didn’t have issues with age. I’ve been finding younger men outside of the generation I grew up with seem to have no real issues with age difference. It’s interesting, because men my age rarely were that open when they were young.
Nikki: I think he’s at least somewhat shy. Not too slippery, but I don’t know him that well, so who knows. If I were 20, my sixth sense would have guessed that he was into me. Because I am so much older, and so much fatter than I was when I was 20, I find it hard to fathom that he is, so even though I would have thought they were clear signs in another stage of life, I find myself doubting them now. I know that’s my problem, not his.
john doe: I think perhaps you’re putting some of your own dissatisfactions with some other women you know onto me–and are making very broad generalizations about both gender groups and our preferences, and then trying to make me fit into concept groupfemale.
Meanwhile, I’m ONE female, and the impetus behind each of the things I said is from very personal place and not from some groupfemalethink.
First of all, I don’t want to be pursued because I think it’s “the man’s job.” I want to be pursued, and I want a man who isn’t scared to state his mind, because that’s what I want. Everyone likes different things. Some people–of both genders–prefer the dominant, pursuant role. Some people–of both genders–prefer the slightly more submissive, pursued role. It’s not divided among male/female lines. I know this because men who prefer the submissive role, where the woman makes the moves, are attracted to me in droves for whatever reason. Pursuer men generally tend to be attracted to me far, far less often. And these submissive-approach men who are attracted to me expect me to take on the more dominant role of pursuer and pusher-along-of-the-relationship. I have done this–gone against the basic nature of who I am and what gives me the most pleasure (being pursued)–for a great number of men because I was attracted to them and cared about them and their feelings. I did this, repeately, for men I loved–despite being a person whose natural, shy tendencies left me longing to be able to be in the more pursed role, with a more demonstrative partner–for more years than I care to count, and quite frankly, I’m fucking tired of it. I’m tired of having to call all the shots and ask all the time for someone to be open with their emotions and how much they care–or don’t–about me. I’m tired of having to drive the relationship. I don’t even *like* doing it. And I’m tired of having to sit around and wonder if “he’s just not that into me” and having to be the one who finally breaks the ice. You’re telling me to consider the GUY and give him a break, to draw him out and lay the groundwork for him, because that is what would make him most comfortable. Well, forgive me if I don’t think it’s unreasonable for the same respect to be given to me if that’s how I’m most comfortable. I’ve been considering everyone else’s comfort for 40 years and I’ve rarely allowed myself to think I had the right or the worth as a woman to be openly wanted in a way where a man would actually DO something strong about it. I’ve accepted a lot of ambivalent, non-expressive men who hoped that I would draw them out and make them more…something. Well, I just want my turn. I don’t need a guy to make me more something, but I want a guy who’s already more something and isn’t relying on me to make it all happen. And who isn’t afraid to tell me he wants to kiss me.
You’ve as much proved what I’m saying above. You say men like Karl Elvis–meaning men who ask for what they want–are rare. If that’s the case, then there are a bunch of MEN whining that they want to be pursued, too, so it sure seems unfair to complain about women who want it–unless you’re going to complain about all of us.
Second, I am attracted to this person, though I’m just getting to know him so I can’t tell at what level yet. However, my mentioning to DN that I hadn’t even thought about if *I* wanted to go out with HIM has less to do with (as it seems you’re implying) my cruelly setting this guy up to be rejected just so I can have an ego stroke than it has to do with the fact that my background with relationships has been such that I never really gave myself the right to consider what I was feeling or wanted as much as what the man was feeling or wanted. See, I thought I didn’t matter much, so I didn’t *get* to think about if I wanted someone unless I was proved to be worthy of being wanted. This is a definite problem for me that I need to work on, but my saying I hadn’t thought of it was indicating my sudden awakening to the fact I was thinking more about him and what he wanted than what I wanted myself. I was acting in the old, unhealthy pattern–my desires mattered less than my desirability to him. So I was blocking out my own emotions and just focusing on whether he wanted ME–because somewhere deep down, I think they aren’t allowed to matter. Because I can’t even believe a guy would find me valuable, so he has to confirm it for me to even get to a level where I feel human enough to think about it.
So basically, not cruel to him at all. Cruel to me. Got it?
So recognizing that was a wakeup call to me and I’m glad DN’s comment brought it up. But it wasn’t at all what you thought it was.
You’re a male; so perhaps you’re only thinking about the male’s insecurities and having compassion for them. It would probably be a good thing to remember women have them, too, regardless of how confident we appear to be in other areas of our lives. Compassion for both sides is probably best.
Also, john doe, I am of your opinion that he both wants and doesn’t want me. And I guess that’s not good enough for me.
Fluffycat: Heh; I don’t live in a cave, I live in catwoman’s lair. Can I poison him with perfumed claws instead?
I cracked up at the autistic comment. Eh, anyway, though, as I said above, I don’t want to club anyone. I just want them to be up front and go for it.
Roberta: Your last line also cracked me up. Good suggestions. All in all, it’s just not looking right, I think. I just really would have liked a good snog, is all.
Sounds like he’s an unfortunate waste of your time. Meaning - sketchy motivations and that every minute with him would probably beget even more worthless confusion. How’s that for butting in? :)
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